A Memory of Light: Chapters 41 - End

Frizzo0133

Is a wondrous friend of modest Kruppe
#21
While I loved Mat in this book (as in the others before), I would have liked to have a bit more of his personal ending. There might have been a more thorough "conclusion" of the events after the last battle. I would not feel adverse to buying a followup book with more of Mat and Tuon (but of course, there is not so much left now to tell).
Jordan had planned a follow up trilogy with Mat and Tuon going back and straightening out the Seanchan Empire, obviously it will never happen now, but that's what I took from what I know after reading the ending.
 

afa

Journeyed there and back again
#22
I was expecting a whole lot more from the Bowl of the Winds since they spent 3 whole books looking for it.
Padan Fain/Moredeth just about pissed me off. I expected him to be the next Dark One after Rand whacked the current incarnation or something. Instead he gets thrown in as almost an afterthought right at the end.
Yeah, I agree. I admit I had actually forgotten about Mordeth, but his presence was very anti-climactic. In my mind, the series had built up the 3 Big Threats - The Dark One, The Forsaken, and Mordeth - but Mordeth ended up not mattering at all.

Was anyone sad about Rand and Egwene letting it end on such a sour note? I mean, they were practically as good as engaged at one point. I wanted a proper reconciliation at the big meeting. Sure from our pov ( Rand in that specfic chapter) we understood prefectly well why the seals had to be broken. And i can understand why you wouldn't want the seals to be broken. But you just could not feel any hint of affection/love for Rand shining through the disagreement.

I feel the same with Mat and Egwene too. How many times have Mat proven himself. She was just so cold. I really wanted a big Two river's gang reunion!
I agree. In fact, I have to say that of the major POVs of the series (or "Level 1" characters as l3gacy put it) Egwene was someone I really, really grew to dislike. While everyone else in their own way was trying to do "the right thing" Egwene always seemed to be want to do the right thing... for the White Tower. I almost feel like she didn't really even care about Rand's fight with the Dark One, and really only was interested in the White Tower coming out okay. Yes, I know she was Amyrlin, but still. Of all the characters that became powerful in the series (Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Perring, Mat) Egwene was the only one who truly seemed like an Aes Sedai. And I don't mean that in a good way. Even some of the initially irritating ones like Nynaeve eventually grew on me. Egwene went the other way, I was okay with her at first but really disliked her as the series moved along.

Fitting, then, that her love interest was Gawyn, another character who I never liked and was sort of glad to see die. At least by enraging Egwene into going all out and taking out Taim, he did something useful for probably the first time in the series.

Mat! So god damn awesome! I think Frizzo said that Mat was one of his favourite fictional characters ever. I think so too! I think everyone saw it comming but i still loved how Mat leading the forces of light and getting his hands dirty to jump into the fight from time to time. What was most disappointing was that Mat didn't out general Demandred. He did keep up with Demandred every step of the way and that saved the forces of light but still...
Well, Demandred was one of the Forsaken and was supposed to be one of the greatest war generals of all time. I think Mat keeping up with him was pretty damn impressive.

Well atleast Lan got his time to shine!
I also hoped that Mat got to fight Demandred and kill him.
Yeah, I kind of thought that, too. But after fighting Gawyn and Galad and seeing how good a swordsman he was, I kind of realised that only Lan could take him on. Although even Lan admits that Demandred was the better swordsman.

Rand's meeting with Mat when Rand convinced Tuon to signt the Dragons peace was just the kind of reunioun i wanted from the rest of the Two rivers gang.Rand was on good terms with Perrin , but it didn't feel like Perrin and Rand was chilhood buddies. Felt like it was a Captain that was reporting in to a commander.
I sort of remember that being their dynamic. While Perrin was also a 'friend' the impression I always got from the series that Rand and Mat were the ones who were really close, with Perrin being the 'other' friend.

I'd bet that Jordan didn't actually write Egwene dying. He kept hinting to her being the finest, longest serving Amyrlin Seat in the history of the tower, but she served for like 6 months before burning herself out and nuking Mazrim Taim.
That's an interesting thought. But I'm glad it happened. It would have been disappointing if the Last Battle was over without a single major character dying. In a way, I was sort of hoping Lan would stay dead after his fight with Demandred. It just felt right for him.

Mat-- great chapters, but not happy with his ending. "Hey Artur Hawkwing, go talk to Tuon and tell her I sent you, peace out" and then he went to Shayol Ghul where he did nothing of consequence other than stabbing Padan Fain. I agree with others-- Fain seemed an afterthought. Also, it doesn't seem characteristic of Mat to just bail on his friend when he is dying, and we never got a shot with the three ta'veren together, even if Rand was dying. Why would Mat be absent from the funeral? Doesn't seem like him. And why would we never see the result of Artur talking to Tuon? When Mat went back to her, all he got was "Hey I'm totally preggo now" and he asked her if she liked to play dice. That's Mat's ending? Meh.
Ha ha... I agree.

So, what plot threads were left untouched that annoyed you the most? I was miffed that the Tinker's song didn't play a part in the final books. They were always greeting each other with some question about them finding the lost song or somesuch at the beginning of the series.
Good question. I had forgotten about that.
 

afa

Journeyed there and back again
#23
Some more thoughts:

As others have questioned, I don't get the part about Rand lighting up the pipe. He just 'imagined' it lit, and it was, which sounds like something from the World of Dreams. I know l3gacy theorised that it might be an Inception-like "was it real or not?" kind of open ending, but I really hope that is not the case. Inception had a terrible ending. I hate when writers do this; it seems to me like a cop-out. Like the writer didn't know how to end the story, so he just took the easy way out and left it open, and then coyly tells readers/watchers that it's up to their interpretation. What a load of BS. I think the idea that Rand is able to affect the Pattern itself, albeit in small ways, is the one I prefer. Though I don't why he should be able to.

And to be honest, I kind of didn't like the ending. So Rand will now just spend the rest of his life looking like one of his mortal enemies? And what about the women? So Elayne is just going to rust a set of triplets as heirs to the Andoran throne without their father? Aviendha will carry on back to the Waste without him, after that one last romp in the hay?

And what about Min? At least Elayne has a country to rule, and Aviendha is a Wise One. To a large extent, they didn't seem particularly close to Rand, anyway. Elayne hooked up with him, got pregnant, and has basically been on her own since. Aviendha, too, rarely stayed with him. But Min was the one who was always by his side. What is she to do now? Just sit around reading books, satisfied in the knowledge that her bond lets her know he is somewhere out there? Or is that why Jordan/Sanderson made her Tuon's Truthspeaker? So she would have something to do?
 

Hikerike

Owns a Ring of Power
#24
I agree. In fact, I have to say that of the major POVs of the series (or "Level 1" characters as l3gacy put it) Egwene was someone I really, really grew to dislike. While everyone else in their own way was trying to do "the right thing" Egwene always seemed to be want to do the right thing... for the White Tower. I almost feel like she didn't really even care about Rand's fight with the Dark One, and really only was interested in the White Tower coming out okay. Yes, I know she was Amyrlin, but still. Of all the characters that became powerful in the series (Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Perring, Mat) Egwene was the only one who truly seemed like an Aes Sedai. And I don't mean that in a good way. Even some of the initially irritating ones like Nynaeve eventually grew on me. Egwene went the other way, I was okay with her at first but really disliked her as the series moved along.

Fitting, then, that her love interest was Gawyn, another character who I never liked and was sort of glad to see die. At least by enraging Egwene into going all out and taking out Taim, he did something useful for probably the first time in the series.
I felt the same about them!I also started to dislike both Egwayne and Gawyn some fiercly. And Nynaeve did grow on me and i like her now. My problems with Egwayne is that while i understood why Egwayne though as she did, it felt like she was no longer part of the two rivers gang. She left it as soon as she got to the tower and moreso when she became Amerlyn. But she never tried to be friends with Rand , Matt and Perrin. And that made me sad and scorn her more!

Yeah, I kind of thought that, too. But after fighting Gawyn and Galad and seeing how good a swordsman he was, I kind of realised that only Lan could take him on. Although even Lan admits that Demandred was the better swordsman.
I still think Mat would've been up for the job! He was a kick ass fighter. Half dead recovering from that curse of the dagger he beat Gawyn and Galad with a staff. That must count for something!

I sort of remember that being their dynamic. While Perrin was also a 'friend' the impression I always got from the series that Rand and Mat were the ones who were really close, with Perrin being the 'other' friend.
Now that you mention it, i think you are absolutely right.
 

TomTB

Super Moderator
Staff member
#25
Some more thoughts:

Inception had a terrible ending. I hate when writers do this; it seems to me like a cop-out.
Ha ha .... In my opinion that's the greatest movie ending of all time ... I loved it =)
 

l3gacy

Dr. Awesomesauce
Staff member
#26
Necroposting to let everyone know that Bela did not die. Her entry in the WoT Companion states she survived, so if you still care nearly 3 years on, you can rest easy now.
 

TomTB

Super Moderator
Staff member
#27
Necroposting to let everyone know that Bela did not die. Her entry in the WoT Companion states she survived, so if you still care nearly 3 years on, you can rest easy now.
I just shed a tear. I'm SO happy right now!
 

Silvion Night

Sir Readalot
Staff member
#29
I now have absolutely no recollection of the ending of Inception. God my memory is shit ...
Maybe it's been meddled with. Check your totem, mate. :)
 

rudyjuly2

Journeyed there and back again
#30
Lots of deaths in the finale. I never thought Rand would make it. That link between him and Moridin/Ishmael always confused me a bit and I didn't see that coming. What kind of power does he have now? Left to my imagination I guess. I always thought Rand would use the self-sacrificing sword move in the final fight until Lan used it (but still survived). I thought Mat or Perrin would die. But losing Egwene hurt. And Siuan and Bryne along with Bashere and some others. I really did enjoy Androl and Pevarra in the final book along with the Black Tower story lines. I thought Olver (Mat's sort of adopted kid) was Birgitte's love interest reborn (Gaiden?) but I guess not.

I actually didn't care that much about Bela. I am surprised for the hatred for Egwene. I liked her character. I thought her story line during the broken tower and constant bickering with sitters was boring but I liked her and Gawyn. The Perrin and Galad scenes earlier were good too.

As for the Tinkers searching for the Song of Life (or whatever it was called) I believe it DID happen in the final book. Loail starts to sing a song during one of the last battles that I believe was the same song. And I read that Rand sang the same song to Tuon causing the garden to grow during that scene.

I did not like the Shara popping out of nowhere as a massive army full of channelers. That bugged me a little.

I did enjoy this final book although I did find the first 25% on the slower side. A good ending. I will agree with others that Mordeth was a bit too much of an after thought. But Jordan simply had created too many characters and plot points that bogged this series down at times.
 
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rudyjuly2

Journeyed there and back again
#31
As for my thoughts on the series - it should have been shorter.

Strengths of WOT

· Great diverse cast of characters with some that I liked and also didn’t like (this is a good thing – I found the Way of Kings had too many similar “good” characters as an example of the opposite). I instantly liked Rand but lost interest in him over the middle section of the series as he changed. I enjoyed him in the final couple books again. My favourite character was Perrin. Mat was not a big character early on but also became a favourite after his experience at Rhuidean. Nynaeve was hot headed and passable. While I didn’t like her, having a different personality is good writing. Character development was good. Moraine, Lan, Egwene, Thom, etc. So many good characters and also different. Many minor characters were really interesting too – in the final book I really enjoyed the Androl and Pevarra relationship. Would have liked a little more background on Slayer/Luc than provided.

· Many different cultures and good world building.

· I always enjoyed a mystery and a good book always leads you somewhere you want to find answers. This series had clues and things early on that drew me in. The middle did bog down but most answers were given by the end. I would have liked to have read more about Min’s research and the prophecies. Maybe only a re-read would have clued me in to some things. Seeing the link between the Tinkers and Aiel, Rand’s history, prophecies, etc. The Tinker song they searched for was sung by Loail in the final book which was a subtle touch.

· I enjoyed the magic system with men and women who could channel and in different ways. I also enjoyed the dream world.

· Relationships. Maybe I’m just a romantic at heart but I did like the personal relationships between many of the characters. Seeing many get married over the course of the series was cool. Although the number of marriage spikes in the last 1.5 books got a little crazy. I still don’t understand Thom and Moraine. Never saw that coming. Mat and Tuon were a good couple.

· I enjoyed the story and the epic good vs evil, end of the world type of plot. Old school but a welcome change at the same time. The book itself also used the Pattern and being “taveren” to allow unrealistic things to happen at times. Deus Ex Machina built in but I didn’t have a problem with it for the most part.

· History of the world. Many interesting items (angreal, t’angreal, etc) along with the Forsaken, Rhuidean, statues and rituals have evolved in this world. I’d like to learn more about them!




Weakness of WOT

· Dragged too much. Books 8-10 and to a lesser degree book 7 were too slow and lacked meaning.

· Too many cultures and different people that resulted in many story lines that weren’t always interesting or important and caused the story to drag. I personally think the Sea Folk were not necessary to the story. Masema and the Prophet story line didn’t add a great deal either. The Shara were brought up a couple of times in passing and then just appear on mass with an allegiance to Demandred in the final book and are a major army. Both the Seanchen and Shara seemed too strong to be a secret like they were imo. Faille’s kidnapping seemed a bit unrealistic and didn’t really add anything either. When her protector was killed by Perrin it felt odd that he wasn’t more vital to the story. With so many different story lines some characters were ignored for long stretches. I felt the Aiel took a real back seat down the stretch.

· Elayne’s Game of Houses and politics involving Camylen and Andor were boring. I enjoyed her character in the first half of the series but her story lines were pretty boring in the back half. I would have done something else with her character.

· Magic was too strong at times. While I enjoyed the magic system I always fear that any being too powerful in a book can lead to questions like “Why didn’t they just do that earlier?” I don’t know who unleashed the golam but it was virtually unkillable. The Power couldn’t touch it. Why not just drop that thing in the middle of the White Tower and just kill everyone? The darkhounds were almost indestructible. How many darkhounds and golams can you create? Why not create more if they can destroy so easily? I tried to not focus on that stuff which included Aiel as human beings that could out run horses. Plus sometimes it did feel like a new magical device was just pulled out of the air to create a new plot point (like a dreamspike or a new angreal).

· Too many minor characters with names that were often too similar. We had Lyrelle and Myrelle as Aes Sedai in one room. Seriously? With the minor mystery of who killed Vandene’s twin sister Adeleas I simply couldn’t keep track of all the names. The sheer amount of names of Aes Sedai and the Kin became crazy and too hard to keep track of. That could have been a more interesting mystery.

· Nynaeve’s braid pulling. This was a non-issue in the first two books but suddenly it’s on every page in books 3-4. It does calm down but my goodness, stop pulling on your hair!

· Obsession with nudity at times. It seemed like every Aiel ritual involved being naked. The Sea Folk were topless on the waters as well. The chest size of most women was referred to. For a book without the R or X rated sex scenes of some modern books, Jordan did seem to like his women naked.

· What happened to Elaida? She foretold a great victory for her at the White Tower and she was destroyed and captured unless getting rid of her was a success.

· Who was Nakomi from earlier questions? This link was good - http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Nakomi. Was she an agent of the Creator or even Verin? Interesting.


Changes you would make?

· It should have been shorter. It felt like some of the middle books made no progression towards finishing the story. Cut Masema and Prophet story line. Cut the Sea Folk. Faille being captured by Sevannah didn’t really add anything and Sevannah herself kind of fizzled out. If you cut a story line out and you wouldn't care then it wasn't necessary.

· I would have liked to have seen more of the Black Ajah scheming. I suppose you couldn’t reveal too much without exposing identities but the Black Ajah was interesting.

· Some of the Forsaken were very interesting and their past live connections to Lews Therin would be a nice read. They were not on the same page though and I’m not sure why Demandred would be allowed to try and kill Rand when the Dark Lord wanted to swallow him at Shayol Ghul.


May you always find water and shade Mr. Robert Jordan. And a thank you to Brandon Sanderson for finishing out the series very well. I personally found it to be a rather seamless transition other than Mat. I agree with others that felt he was a bit off. He was a bit too one-dimensional or YA imo but I still enjoyed him and the Tuon story line was excellent.
 

Silvion Night

Sir Readalot
Staff member
#32
Interesting to read your thougths on the series! I more or less agree with most of what you're saying, apart from the love relationships (which I found very tedious and unrealistic in most cases). Interesting take also on the inclusion of the Sea Folk, the Sharan and the Seanchan. I never reaslly thought of it like that, but the way you put it I have to agree with your points.
 

Sneaky Burrito

Crazy Cat Lady
Staff member
#33
The Shara really bothered me, too. It is entirely possible I didn't remember references to them at all, since I read the non-Sanderson books all in a row and then the Sanderson ones as they were released (though I got to AMOL quite late). But it was like, hey, here's this super powerful army of bad guy channelers just coming out of nowhere in time for the final battle.