Artemis by Andy Weir

[Alucard]

Like I said in one of the other threads the book is ok, and that's about it. The thing I missed the most was humour that was present in The Martian but not here.

A bit about the book:
The main character is Jazz Bashara. She's a young woman living on this Moon base. She's ethnically an Arab from Saudi Arabia, but she came to Artemis when she was 6 yo with her father.
After a strain of bad life decisions stemming from typical teenage rebellion from rejecting her father's culture & religion and to a big degree rejecting her father as well, as well as seeking dead end relationship, she's at a low point in her life.
Working as a delivery person, she has failed at getting any education despite being talented at math and science. So she gets by with low level smuggling, while she lives in a capsule hotel (these things exists in Japan in real life), trying to save every penny of Artemis currency.
So, she takes one job that requires her to sabotage some vehicles of some big Artemis company. Of course things go wrong and she's in trouble.

I finished it today, and it went just as I expected it would.


This is basically a small thief story that is one of the most common tropes in fantasy, only here the setting is Artemis moonbase.

So yeah, mediocre, but fun and the MC is likeable enough. It's nowhere near The Martian imo.
Even though the MC is 26 yo, the book has strong YA vibes in terms of bildungsroman.

My final rating 6/10

 

[ReguIa]

Was really excited to get to this but I've seen these ''ok'' reviews all over so I don't know. Maybe sometime next year if I'm not too into anything else.

 

[Sparrow]

Like I said in one of the other threads the book is ok, and that's about it. The thing I missed the most was humour that was present in The Martian but not here.

A bit about the book:
The main character is Jazz Bashara. She's a young woman living on this Moon base. She's ethnically an Arab from Saudi Arabia, but she came to Artemis when she was 6 yo with her father.
After a strain of bad life decisions stemming from typical teenage rebellion from rejecting her father's culture & religion and to a big degree rejecting her father as well, as well as seeking dead end relationship, she's at a low point in her life.
Working as a delivery person, she has failed at getting any education despite being talented at math and science. So she gets by with low level smuggling, while she lives in a capsule hotel (these things exists in Japan in real life), trying to save every penny of Artemis currency.
So, she takes one job that requires her to sabotage some vehicles of some big Artemis company. Of course things go wrong and she's in trouble.

I finished it today, and it went just as I expected it would.


This is basically a small thief story that is one of the most common tropes in fantasy, only here the setting is Artemis moonbase.

So yeah, mediocre, but fun and the MC is likeable enough. It's nowhere near The Martian imo.
Even though the MC is 26 yo, the book has strong YA vibes in terms of bildungsroman.

My final rating 6/10

I'm about two hours into the audiobook and, thus far, it's not even a fun read.
I know I'm just getting into the meat of the story, but predictable it is, and a bit cheesy.

 

[Alucard]

but predictable it is, and a bit cheesy.

Yup! Can't argue there.

Hi Sparrow

 

[Sparrow]

Yup! Can't argue there.

Hi Sparrow

Hi Alucard!

My gut feeling is that Weir spent years on, 'The Martian'... it was sort of his baby, and it shows. It was an excellent Hard Science Fiction story, and I guess I was expecting Artemis to be something akin to it. I'll just have to settle into the story and listen to it on its own merits. I can tell you one thing is for certain... Hollywood will not be turning this one into a movie.

 

[Derk of Derkholm]

Have read it too, practically the moment it came out, yes, it was a page-turner like "The Martian", for me, but no, IMO it did not come close.

One thing I unconsciously had in my head all the time when I was reading it, that became more obvious was that he writes the book from the presumed perspective of a 20something muslim female.

Apart from that being IMO not a very good idea (cultural appropriation), I also feel that he does not pull it off, either.

If I read the book and, all the time, have the impression that it is written by a bloke trying to be funny (similar to "The Martian", but somehow different), who now and then interjects "BTW, being a 25-year-old muslim girl blah blah blah ", that does not work very well.

Disclaimer: I also could not in any way credibly demonstrate how I think a 25-year-old muslim girl should write a book. Hmm.

So meh.

 

[Alucard]

@Derk of Derkholm
Not to go into politics at all and cultural appropriation, but I have to correct you factually.

Jazz is not muslim. She's ethnically arab yes. She has a muslim father yes, but she's not a muslim.
She never practiced Islam, which is requirement for being a muslim. Not the fact that she's an arab.

She was brought to Artemis when she was 6 (she's 26 now) and she never engaged into any of her father's faith. She in fact rejected it in higher degree than she rejected her father.
She considers moon her home and multiple times throughout the book she displays complete rejection of Saudi Arabia, repeating 'there is nothing there for me. Moon is my home'.

I think you confused her religious and ethnical identity. There are plenty of Arabs who are not Muslim.
Weir might have not written the best book, but you are wrong in your claim that he wrote it from a perspective of 26 yo Muslim woman.
He wrote it from the perspective of 26 yo Moon woman, who happens to be ethnically Arab.

 

[Derk of Derkholm]

Alucard, thank you for pointing it out!!!!

You are absolutely right, of course.

However, I have to add that he - IMO - still does not really sound very much like I would expect a 26-year old Arab woman to sound.
Moon, of course, might account for that.

 

[Alucard]

Moon, of course, might account for that.

That's how I saw it. She's naturally a bit of a tomboy. She has an interest in math and science and she ran away from home and shacked up with a guy when she was 16 yo.
She had a hard life, so she had to toughen up. Especially after she found out you know what about her first boyfriend.
In all honesty I think he wrote himself in as Jazz. Or at least a significant part of his personality.

I wouldn't expect her to compare to any of the stereotypes with Arab women in general. IMO the whole set up of her ethnicity is bit of a play into what is popular to do nowadays in fantasy. And her religious, strict father is an easy character to create conflict with the main character.

I don't know, this book is full of flaws. It's predictable, cheese fest but there you have it. I saw yesterday that Weir did AMA on reddit, and he himself said that he prefers Martian and that he's not sure if this is a good book or not. But the sales are going well and there is a sequel planned with another character, but Jazz will make a re-appearance as a side one.

 

[Derk of Derkholm]

@Alucard, I do have a question for you:

Maybe it stems from my superficial reading of the book ... but ... you say that Jazz is not a Muslim, however ... if her father is a devout muslim, what would be a reason for him not to raise her in the muslim faith? That was actually my assumption, unless there was a specific mention of her mother as being a non-muslim (again, tough for a "devout muslim" to imagine marrying a non-muslim, but still) that I have overread somewhere. She might not be devout, but I was assuming that she would still be a muslim as far as her official religion is concerned. Sorry if this is taking the thread off-topic...

 

[Alucard]

if her father is a devout muslim, what would be a reason for him not to raise her in the muslim faith?

Well he did try. But she rejected it.

Her mother is not mentioned as far as I remember, so I can't comment on that.

She might not be devout, but I was assuming that she would still be a muslim as far as her official religion is concerned.

Why just because she's Arab? Again, ethnicity does not equal religion.
You have plenty of christian parents whose kids aren't christian. Why would you have double standard for Islam? It's just another abrahamic religion along with christianity and judaism.

There are atheist Arabs. A lot of them actually, but they often have to hide it. I knew several Iranian while I was in Japan who were atheist. They are not Arab though, they are Persian.

I am Bosnian, and I'm not a muslim. I'm an atheist. My mother is practicing muslim, but I'm not. So I don't see any issue with this.
I have a Croatian friend who's parents are practicing catholics, but they are atheist like me.

Islam is a religion, not ethnicity.

Jazz is her own person. We might inherit both our DNA and our faith (or lack of) from our parents. While we can't change our ethnicity (and why should we?), most people at least once in their lifetime think about their religion.
Besides in Islam particularly it's not a passive thing you inherit from your parents. You actually have to opt in or opt out once you hit puberty, although I doubt Andy Weir is familiar with any of that.


The point is she rejected it. You can't be a believer just because your dad is one if you fundamentally reject his religion.

 

[Derk of Derkholm]

You have plenty of christian parents whose kids aren't christian. Why would you have double standard for Islam?

I thought the difference was (more or less) that in Christianity it is pretty simple to exit the church (did it when I was 12, basically had to write a letter to the magistrate and that was it), but in Islam you will get killed by fellow Muslims if you try to do that?

Again, I am not an expert, that is what understand from what I have heard.

But then, again, might be different for people living on the moon ;-)

 

[Alucard]

but in Islam you will get killed by fellow Muslims if you try to do that?

If you live in theocratic dictatorship yes. Not all countries that have majority muslim population do that.
But a lot of these countries where Islam is the state religion haven't really progressed as far as human rights go. They are about the same level as Europe was in middle ages as far as human rights go, when you couldn't leave christianity either without being murdered as a witch or something along those lines.
Moon is not that, and neither is my country lol
Both me and my brother are athiest, we didn't have to write anything. We simply do not believe in any kind of god and that includes my mother's.
My father was pantheist, so everybody is entitled to their own belief or lack of in my case.

 

[Silvion Night]

If you live in theocratic dictatorship yes. Not all countries that have majority muslim population do that.
But a lot of these countries where Islam is the state religion haven't really progressed as far as human rights go. They are about the same level as Europe was in middle ages as far as human rights go, when you couldn't leave christianity either without being murdered as a witch or something along those lines.
Moon is not that, and neither is my country lol
Both me and my brother are athiest, we didn't have to write anything. We simply do not believe in any kind of god and that includes my mother's.
My father was pantheist, so everybody is entitled to their own belief or lack of in my case.

I'm an atheist myself, but if you don't actively write to the magistrate to get delisted from the Church records you are very much still counted as a practitioner. At least that's how it works in the Protestant and Catholic churches in the Netherlands. I delisted myself when I turned 18. My parents and one of my brothers are atheist, but they are still enlisted in the Church records. They're too lazy to write the letter to delist. The problem here is that the Church can still get prerogatives (tax exemptions and such) based on number of practitioners. So basically, besides being hypocritical, being in the records actually provides the Church leadership with leverage to gain advantages for themselves. A ridiculous system if you ask me.

My other brother is a Muslim. What @Derk of Derkholm says is basically true if you follow Sharia law. In the Netherlands (where I live) you will probably not be killed, but turning away from Islam means the devout will from then on shun you and you are basically ostracized from their society. No apostates allowed. :/

 

[Alucard]

When I moved to Germany and went to register with Kreisverwaltungsreferat (I don't know the english term for this) both me and my husband got the question of our denomination. We said atheist, and that was that. Because they also have church tax here, and we aren't paying for that and because it's 100% true.
I honestly think church tax is stupid. No offence to Germany or Holland. I'm guessing it's just one of those remnants of old laws that aren't modernized yet.

In Bosnia, as far Islam goes, there is no tax as far as I know. But if you want you can pay into Islamic community membership per year, and you get cheaper services of funeral rituals when you die, and some other 'perks'. My mom pays for this. It's not something I was ever interested. I want to be cremated not buried anyway. No rituals or funeral services required. But cremation is absolute haram in Islam lol. Like I care...
Bosnia is quite a bit different to other majority muslim countries. Mixed marriages happen. People don't take their religion seriously, they are casual believers, like christians in the west. We also had 50 years of communism, where religion was reserved for private sphere, so that left a mark. Most people treat it that way. They celebrate holidays, go to a mosque once in every blue moon, and as soon as Ramadan is over it's back to drinking rakiaand eating meze. All of these people would tell you they consider themselves muslim. And they are in some sense, but transport them to Saudi Arabia, and most of them would end up on a square with public lashing sentence. There are very, very few devout muslims and a significant portion of them are foreigners from middle east.

Also in general in Islam you have to actually opt in the religion. Sure, you might be born to muslim parents, but until you say the Kalimas, you are not muslim. And kalimas is a phrase, where you bear witness that Allah is one and only god, and that Muhammad was his prophet.
Until you actually say this and believe it, you are not a muslim in a true sense of the word. Problem is most kids go to islamic schools and they learn and say kalimas without actually having the mental capacity (as kids) to understand what they are saying.
Also kids are considered not to know right from wrong until they reach puberty. So they are not obligated to start praying and fasting until that age according to Quran. Doesn't stop some ignorant parents from imposing shit on them since they are toddlers though.


Just a quick thing I want to mention is something that's mostly western media's fault. Terminology which they established. Sharia already means Islamic law. So when you say 'Sharia law', you are saying 'Islamic law law'. I heard someone say that it's very funny to native arabic speakers.
So you can just say Sharia, or Islamic law, and that would be correct. It's not really important, I just wanted to let you know. I know it's canon to use it incorrectly, as that's what most people know.


In any case we went far away from the book.
We have to acknowledge the setting and time this is happening.
This is Moon base, 100 or 150 years (I'm not quite sure) from now.
Today's rules don't really apply. You can't see Jazz from the lens of today's world. But also her behaviour is something that would get her killed in a lot of Islamic countries. She started having sex at 16 yo, and she doesn't believe in Allah. Now how fair is it to consider her a Muslim with that kind of behavior and lack of belief? Just because her dad is muslim? Because she's ethnically a semite, more specifically of Arabic descent?

That's incredibly patronizing standpoint to me. And shows a misunderstanding of ethnicity and religion, putting almost an equal sign between them. A lot of atheist Arabs get an asylum in western Europe and US and I can only imagine how fucked up they would feel if a UK native or a US native would still consider them Muslims, after all the shit they go through.
I'm not throwing any shade at Andy here, it's just disheartens me that these things happen in real life, forget the book.

 

[kenubrion]

I must say, I'm incredulous at the influence that Islam has made in all your lives. The commonality? Simply living in Europe. My heart goes out to you.

 

[Alucard]

Eh @kenubrion, Islam came to Europe with Ottoman empire, so 500 hundered years ago. If you said that to any ex-yugoslavian person that identify as muslim, you'd probably get some strange looks. 500 years of foreign culture and religion is enough to transform native population into thinking that it's part of their identity.
I was never cool with this, but most people don't think in historical context.

 

[Derk of Derkholm]

Alucard, thank you for the further details

Most likely my views on Islam (which I don‘t view as something favourably, but also not in any way worse than the kind of Evangelic Christianity currently shaping the U.S.) are influenced by the years I spent in Malaysia, which - while a modern, multi-ethnic country - unfortunately subscribes to a much more conservative kind of Islam. But Saudi Arabia is definitely much, much worse.

 

[Silvion Night]

Eh @kenubrion, Islam came to Europe with Ottoman empire, so 500 hundered years ago. If you said that to any ex-yugoslavian person that identify as muslim, you'd probably get some strange looks. 500 years of foreign culture and religion is enough to transform native population into thinking that it's part of their identity.
I was never cool with this, but most people don't think in historical context.

Well, this is not the case for my country. Before the 1950's there were no Dutch muslims living in the Netherlands (there were 200 million Dutch subjects in Indonesia, but that is an entirely different matter).

Point is that while some regions in Europe have known Islam for 5 centuries, in a lot of countries it's a very recent development.

Now even though my brother is a Muslim, and I am on good standing with him, I am very critical of his religious believes. It has now come to a point where we agreed not to discuss the topic any further. The problem is that I am very scientifically minded and am a firm believer in Human Rights as detailed in the ECRM (European Convention for Human Rights), while he has a more spiritual worldview and is a firm believer in cultural / theological absolutism. Link this to the principle of dawah (where a Muslim is encouraged to spread the message of Islam) and you can easily see how me challenging him often led to some hefty arguments.

 

[Alucard]

We have stepped away far from the book topic. But let me just say this.

Regarding Malaysia, it kinda had the same historical destiny as Bosnia, where Islam came many centuries ago, and it established itself. But unlike Bosnia, it never had communism, to root the religion out so the overall religiosity is stronger. Plus, it's very hard to make a Slav not drink lol, so we never were as a people super religious. Most people cherry pick the nice stuff, and ignore the bad. I have heard that some freedoms aren't really there yet in Malaysia, and that is unfortunate for their people.

@Silvion Night , I see that you have had some turmoil with your brother. I'm sad about this. I personally had few discussions with my mother too, but in the end I've come to a few conclusions. Her Islam is more of a personal kind, not social. She doesn't go to mosque. She doesn't practice dawah. She's only preoccupied with her own spiritual life.
So I decided to let it go. She's 65, she's scared of dying, she's alone and I'm not going to change her mind.
I am also like you, and I try to think through my decisions and my identity rationally, while she, like most people just takes things for granted. So because her mother and grandmother never challenged status quo, neither does she. I'm more like Jazz here, minus bad decisions lol


As for myself I am a secular humanist, and my main ethical principle in life is the golden rule. Aristotle's ethics is most influential for me.
You may not agree with me here, but I strongly reject all Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism).
I strongly identify with my european heritage and my ethnic heritage, and these 3 are nothing but middle-eastern imports to Europe. Even though Christianity and Judaism had more time to worm its way into Europe, they are ultimately non-european inventions. As far as religions goes I am only sympathetic to european paganism, because of its cultural significance, not because of belief.
The true values that have come out of Europe are the ones that came with greco-roman culture, and those are the values that still propel human rights and democracy. All abrahamic religions in their essence, stand against those values.
I often wonder what would happen if Europe remained paganistic. Where would we be now? Who knows.