Let's face it: GRRM is never going to finish aSoIaF

George Martin is never going to finish aSoIaF

  • Agree

    Votes: 14 77.8%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • I honestly thought he died years ago

    Votes: 1 5.6%

  • Total voters
    18

ExTended

Hired Nicomo Cosca, famed soldier of fortune
#21
I was actually leaning toward the common fantasy take on what is defining a person as a bastard. Even so - it is more on the note of being perturbed by someone's contrary actions than about anything else.

I live in the Balkans too and in my country we don't really have a social concept for what a bastard is, because it would be too rude to call on someone about it. It could be used to call someone who's parents weren't married at the time of his/her birth( but if the father aknowedges the child or is taking care of it after it's born, people wouldn't use the word toward the child). The more common use would be about describing a child who doesn't know who his father is. But the word "fatherless" is more commonly used for that, since it's more descriptive of someone's situation without the inherit rudeness of the word bastard.

I'd say the only way( at least in my country) you'd encounter the word bastard used to describe a child is if the mother( at the time of conceiving the child) is married or lives or is in relationship with Man A, but Man A has had nothing to do with the actual conceiving of said child, i.e. the mother was unfaithful and tried to hide the fact. Even so, it's directed more toward describing the immoral act done by the mother rather than for insulting the child that had nothing to do with how it was conceived. It could also apply to a situation where a father like Ned brings a child like John into his home, when it's obvious that John was conceived after Ned had begun his relationship with Catelyn, etc.

We are mostly using the word to lovingly or not pointing to unconventional behavior, or cheekiness, or arrogance. And also as a slang substituting "bro", but this is usually found through the younger demographics, since it has somewhat childish/immature ring to it when it's used in that regard, because it's pronounced with different cadence( similar to the "wazaaaaa" thing from the commercial).
 
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Alucard

In the name of the Pizza Lord. Charge!
Staff member
#22
I'd say the only way( at least in my country) you'd encounter the word bastard used to describe a child is if the mother( at the time of conceiving the child) is married or lives with Man A, but Man A has had nothing to do with the actual conceiving of said child, i.e. the mother was unfaithful and tried to hide the fact.
Yup, same thing here. In Bulgarian is it anything like kopile/копиле in BCS? (Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian)

But the word "fatherless" is more commonly used for that, since it's more descriptive of someone's situation without the inherit rudeness of the word bastard.
What is the word for that? I'm curious if it's the same for B/C/S or if we have similar concepts. Bulgarian is pretty similar to BCS anyway and vice versa.
Slight correction, it's Jon actually.
 

ExTended

Hired Nicomo Cosca, famed soldier of fortune
#23
Yup, same thing here. In Bulgarian is it anything like kopile/копиле in BCS? (Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian)
Yeah, almost the same - it's 'kopele/копеле', so only one letter difference. We use 'kopile' too, when we want to make sure the other person knows the word is being used in jest.

What is the word for that? I'm curious if it's the same for B/C/S or if we have similar concepts. Bulgarian is pretty similar to BCS anyway and vice versa.
I am not sure if we have a word for word equivalent for "fatherless". The Bulgarian version is 'без баща', which literally translates into "Without a father". Probably the Russian variant of it would be closer to your BCS, since it's 'без отца' - and that's likely the more common slavic word for father.

Slight correction, it's Jon actually.
Thanks! The funny thing is somewhere in my mind I knew that...
 

Darth Tater

Journeyed there and back again
#24
Political correctness. You can outthink some undergrad profs but I never saw anyone win a battle with a law school prof. (Adjuncts excluded).

Constitutional Law class. Female prof talking about "illigitimates" This female student (previously a stripper) blurts out "what exactly is an ILLIGITIMATE?? (PC term is children born out of wedlock) and the prof without missing a beat says "young lady if you don't know you need to have a talk with your mother when you get home". Class was LMAO. Maybe you had to be there.

What kind of a world do we live in that we judge children and adults by their parentage? It was much worse earlier but still. And who is to say that the unwed parents (whether together or not) are not some of the better parents around??
 

Alucard

In the name of the Pizza Lord. Charge!
Staff member
#25
I am not sure if we have a word for word equivalent for "fatherless". The Bulgarian version is 'без баща', which literally translates into "Without a father".
Oh sorry my bad then. I thought you had one word for it. 'Baša' is not something I have ever heard of here. We have so many words that are used for a father (I'm gonna write them in Cyrillic so you get them better):
Oтaц, тата (most common), ћале, стари, матори, ћаћа, бабо (ottoman influence right there) and probably more but I cant remember now.

Probably the Russian variant of it would be closer to your BCS, since it's 'без отца' - and that's likely the more common slavic word for father.
Yup it's 'без оца' in BCS because it's in genitive. 'Oтaц' is nominative.

Sorry for off railing the thread, I'm just fascinated by Slavic languages.
 

Andrew.J

Hired Nicomo Cosca, famed soldier of fortune
#26
I'm cautiously optimistic. At least for the Winds of Winter. A Dream of Spring, though, isn't likely to materialise.

ASoIaF holds a special place for me, because it's the series that got me back into reading. And A Dance with Dragons was the first novel I've read in English (and I thought it was great - nothing beats reading in another language for the first few times). It's been only two years since I've finished the series, so I'm not yet weary of waiting. :)

I guess we'll see how it all pans out eventually.
 

ExTended

Hired Nicomo Cosca, famed soldier of fortune
#27
Oтaц, тата (most common), ћале, стари, матори, ћаћа, бабо (ottoman influence right there) and probably more but I cant remember now.
Отац is very close to a word we are using to refer to church priests - it's Отец in Bulgarian, similar to the English use of Father. The inherit meaning it bears is that of father, but more of a religious father.

Тата is very similar to what we have too. Our variant is 'Татко' and it can be used as "This is my father" and as "Father, how are you?"( we also use 'тате' for that, usually татко is a bit more formal and is used to refer to more elderly parents, but both are correct). And if I want to ask my mother "Have you spoken with dad recently", I'd probably use тати. When I say тати, it's usually more neutrally. However, I have found with my previous girlfriends is that when they use the same word, they are using is as equivalent of "daddy" instead of "dad", because they say it with softer cadence and buckets more fondness. I as a man cannot use it in that way, because it would sound like I am jesting - I cannot explain it exactly, but girls can get away with it, maybe because their is the social understanding that their "daddy" will kick your ass if you don't behave, so it's OK for them to laid the word with child-like fondness.

"Стари" we don't use with this meaning. In Bulgarian it literally means "old" referring to multiple people or objects. The closest you'd get is if someone uses the word to refer to his parents, but it's usually teenage people and above, maybe to about mid-twenties that would use that, because it has a slight slang-like feel to it. It's more commonly used as a way of referring to old and wise people, as in the Elders in The Wheel of Time, which are translated as Старей/Стареи. And if a documentary channel refers to the elder of an African tribe, it would probably be using the word Старейшина.

As for бабо - we use that too, but with a different meaning. In modern Turkish 'baba' is for "father", but in Bulgarian we use баба to say "grandmother". I am not sure if we are influenced by the Russian бабушка, or the Russians were influenced by our language, but we share that word with them. Bulgarians as a nation are a mixture of conquering Proto-Bulgarians( nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes in Asia) and local Balkan's Slavic and Thracian tribes, so it's somewhat of a muddle trying to decide about the different influences.

Sorry for hijacking the thread too.
 

afa

Journeyed there and back again
#28
Added to his other running projects, and taking into account his embarrassingly slow writing speed, he will probably never finish the series. You have to be realistic about these things.
Agreed. GRRM keeps claiming that finishing the series is his first priority, but it's clearly not. I mean, I get that he has things on his plate, but Jesus man! He's written only 2 books in 17 years!

Yup. I agree with you Silv.
At this point I don't really care anymore. I lost any love I had for his books. It's evident from the fact that I started A Dance with Dragons on June 5th, 2016 and I still haven't finished it.
I'm not one of his readers who thinks I deserve anything more than what I paid for and I don't feel angry with him or jaded. He can do whatever he wants with years he has left on this planet, but to say that he's an unprofessional individual is to downplay it.

To put it simply, I now care about his books as much as he does about finishing them.
Well put. And I would encourage all ASoIaF fans to adopt the same attitude. Rather than constantly pestering him for updates, people need to take the exact opposite approach and decide, "Screw it." Who knows, maybe apathy will work where adoration didn't?

I've been pushing an alternate justification for giving up on his books: the show will give us a complete storyline, now already in many places better than the novels, that will not be displaced as the canonical version by the books. The moment he agreed to allow screenwriters to finish his story (but not the written version, because he doesn't give a shit about his fans) for HBO before he could finish the written series, he put us down this path. Now that the show is further than the written story, GRRM's subsequent writing will be fan fiction.
That's a very interesting take. He's taking so long with the books, that the show becomes the canon. Regardless of whenever he finished the series. Interesting. I can imagine the hilarious scenario where GRRM puts out the books, and people read it and go, "But that's not how it was in the show!" The exact opposite of the usual trend with these things.

I was looking forward to GoT for the first few seasons when they were sticking closer to the books, but the further they moved away the less I've become interested. The writing is just not up to par for a lot of character arcs. The new and the last season is about to start, and a few days ago I mentioned this to my husband, to which he replied: 'Remember when we were looking forward to GoT?' to which I apathetically replied 'Yeah'.

I'm so over all of it guys. I'm glad it is ending and we will all get some closure on what happens to some characters we like, but for some reason I still feel this is an unsatisfactory way to end it.
The show is actually not bad. Sure, there are plenty of differences. But considering GRRM's inability to untangle the web he's weaved, and the fact that the show is actually progressing, maybe they're making changes is not a bad thing...

From all I've heard from him and his fans, I think you're right.

Not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not. So tell me this, I've never read a single book. Am I truly better off than someone who is left in limbo?
Interesting. I would probably say that it's still worth a read. It's not so much that ASoIaF is a great 'series.' After all, Book 4 was pretty average, and Book 5 was actually bad. So is 60% of the series being good enough for ASoIaF to be called a good series on the whole? I don't know. But those 3 books... they were really good.

I am also thinking that Patrick Rothfuss is deliberately riding the GoT TV-Show bandwagon by delaying the final book until the show ends or Winds of Winter gets published. At this point no other explanation really makes any sense - I get more and more convinced that he just likes the reflected fame he gets for being as lazy as G. R. R. Martin and his books constantly being included into "Martin and Rothfuss are lazy as f*ck" articles probably helps Rothfuss immensely for sales, so there ya go.
Yeah, Rothfuss is actually more annoying. At least GRRM has some excuses. The show took up a lot of his time, plus appearances at conventions and travelling the world and what not. And now this new show that he will apparently work on with HBO. What the fuck is Rothfuss's excuse? What is he doing if not writing the book?? Grooming his beard? And to make matters worse - and yes, I've said this many times before - he said the trilogy was already complete a decade ago!

but at the same time this only increases my admiration for guys like Brandon Sanderson, who take their careers and fans seriously enough - those are the people who drive the fantasy genre forward anyways.
Ditto. Same for Abercrombie, who isn't quite as prolific but writes at a decent enough pace. And even Mark Lawrence, whose books I don't love, but he consistently puts out a book every year. Or even Jim Butcher, who's written 15 Dresden books in 16 years.
 

Nuomer1

Journeyed there and back again
#29
I begin to suspect that GRRM is a member of that class of creative types whose creativity only works when they are hungry. Since, with even moderate care, he will have taken enough dosh for the TV series that he will never need to sit in front of a keyboard again, we might as well assume there will be no further works.
 

Jakyro

Journeyed there and back again
#30
I’ve only seen the first season of the tv show and I really loved it. I started the books afterwards and decided to continue the books before watching the whole show. I finished them about 2-3 years ago and I’ve been looking out for Winds of Winter since then. To some extent I still look out for it, but I’m not eagerly anticipating it anymore. If it comes out at a certain moment, I’ll eventually buy it and I’ll read it at some point, but if it doesn’t come out anymore I’m fine with that as well.

For now I’m settled with the tv show. I’m planning on watching the whole series next year so I can immediately pick in with season 8. The tv show is my main concern now, and if the books are finished, all the better, if not ... fine as well
 

Bill Door

Told lies with Locke
#31
I think he'll finish it, but it's not that big of deal to me if he doesn't. I read so much fantasy that I'm not going to get hung up on one series...especially not a series that has been falling in quality for some time now. Like someone said...when he changed what was originally a trilogy into something bigger he pretty much screwed up what he had going. Book 5 is 1100 page novel where almost nothing of note happens.
 

afa

Journeyed there and back again
#32
I begin to suspect that GRRM is a member of that class of creative types whose creativity only works when they are hungry. Since, with even moderate care, he will have taken enough dosh for the TV series that he will never need to sit in front of a keyboard again, we might as well assume there will be no further works.
The thing is, a part of me kind of sympathises with GRRM.

The guy didn't just start writing a few years ago. He's been writing since the 70s. He's produced a bunch of stuff, and after decades of working on his craft, he finally reached a position of fame and wealth that he could afford to relax. So a part of me understands; the guy is enjoying the fruits of 40 years of labor. I just wish he would be upfront about it. "I've been writing for 4 decades, and am only now finally enjoying life. So I'm going to continue enjoying life, and write the books whenever I feel like it." Not that his fans would like that, of course, but at least people will stop waiting on him and speculating when the next book will be.

Rothfuss, to me, is worse. Unlike GRRM, Rothfuss doesn't have the "I've been working for 4 decades," excuse. The guy has written precisely 2 novels in his career. Two. And a novella. That's it. What the hell is his excuse?
 

Silvion Night

Sir Readalot
Staff member
#33
What the hell is his excuse?
Maybe he is grooming his beard? Who knows. As someone already mentioned, Rothfuss claimed to have the trilogy finished when book 1 was published and that the only thing left to do was polishing. 10 years of polishing. :hilarious:
 

Maark Abbott

Journeyed there and back again
#34
Maybe he is grooming his beard? Who knows. As someone already mentioned, Rothfuss claimed to have the trilogy finished when book 1 was published and that the only thing left to do was polishing. 10 years of polishing. :hilarious:
I feel like there's an applicable saying here
 

Alucard

In the name of the Pizza Lord. Charge!
Staff member
#36
"Стари" we don't use with this meaning. In Bulgarian it literally means "old" referring to multiple people or objects.
Yeah that's what it means, old. We use it a lot in Bosnia. 'Стари' for dad, and 'Старa' for mum.
That's not even the most confusing thing. In Sarajevo, people use 'мама' for mother and 'мајка' for grandmother, when the original meaning is mother.
As for бабо - we use that too, but with a different meaning. In modern Turkish 'baba' is for "father", but in Bulgarian we use баба to say "grandmother". I am not sure if we are influenced by the Russian бабушка, or the Russians were influenced by our language, but we share that word with them.
Those two words do not share the same origin. Because we basically butchered every ottoman word that we borrowed and adapted it to our tongue so it does sound different to how the Turks use it.
However, 'баба' is russian/slavic, from бабушка and we use it for grandma, although it can have a negative meaning, basically meaning 'old hag'. We usually use much softer 'бака' for grandmother or 'нана'/'нена' in Bosnia.
Curiously in Japanese 'баба' is also 'old hag'.

Bulgarians as a nation are a mixture of conquering Proto-Bulgarians( nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes in Asia) and local Balkan's Slavic and Thracian tribes, so it's somewhat of a muddle trying to decide about the different influences.
Heh, there was no 'local Balkan Slavic' before Slavic migration to Balkan in 6th century. In our case ex Yugoslavia was inhabited since paleolithic era. Illyrians lived here as a distinct culture from before 8th century BC. In iron age, so around 4/5th century BC, Celts invaded. Then came Romans in 3rd century BC. Then came Slavs in 6th century. Then Ottomans in 15th, then Austro-Hungarians in 19th.
They did some dna research in these parts for 6 years and we are basically majority Illyrian (in Bosnia and Croatia especially) and then a mix of slavic, celtic and even germanic genes.
Balkan has been a cross-road for all kinds of European tribes until late middle ages, and people of course mixed.





What the hell is his excuse?
He has money. He doesn't need to apply himself so hard anymore.
Also some creative folks develop a sort of neurosis when it's time to finish an art piece. Because then it's over and it's a loss in a sense. It's much safer to cuddle it and polish it and delude yourself that it needs more work. ( I speak from my personal experience lol).
 
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S. K. Inkslinger

Will likely be killed by a Lannister soon
#39
I'm optimistic about Winds of Winter. He must've written something in those years.
A Dream of Spring, though, is likely to never be realised.
Probably because it's 'the dream'. Lol.

With that terrible pun I will excuse myself. :p