Sanderson vs GRRM

João Ribeiro

Journeyed there and back again
#41
The first 3 ASoIaF books are about as good as it gets in fantasy, but he hasn't been able to maintain that level.
This is what drove me away from the series

Shall he die prematurely, would be willing to ask another author to complete the series in his testimony?
I think he already mentioned he doesn't want someone else to finish the series in case he dies.

If I had to choose, I would choose the new Stormlight over the new ASoIaF book any day.
And twice on Sundays
 

Alucard

In the name of the Pizza Lord. Charge!
Staff member
#44
I reckon Sanderson could finish it ;)
Sanderson would get a stroke before he could write a sex scene in the same tone as Martin, or a violent scene in the same tone for that matter. I can just picture him, his hands trembling over the keyboard, eyes rolling backwards, his body shaking all over
Can you honestly imagine Sanderson writing anytime in his career scenes with incest sex or gang rape or oral sex with female on the receiving end? Give me a goddamn break. His head would explode lol

Is this true? What an asshole.
Why is he an asshole. I completely get the sentiment.
Just think how many paintings, movies, books have left unfinished throughout the history because people die all the time. It happens all the time. And just because this book series is popular, fans get to decide what happens to one man's art? Screw that sentiment.
I'm not an artist like Martin is and I never will be, but here and there I draw some thing. I have many things left unfinished. Hypothetically, lets say my pictures become world famous and I die leaving my grand opus unfinished. You think I would want somebody messing with my work? I couldn't give a damn if they were the next da Vinci. Hands off! It's my artwork. I highly suspect Martin feels the same attachment to his work any creator who invest himself into it does. I would never disrespect or presume that I or anyone else could finish somebody else's life work unless they specifically ask for it and even then it would have WRONG spelled all over it. Sorry for the pun.

I know many of you don't feel the way I do, but gooddamn people you sound way too needy when it comes to Martin.
 

Alucard

In the name of the Pizza Lord. Charge!
Staff member
#46
So we should all be screwed out of an ending that we waited decades for, just to appease a dead man?
He really doesnt owe us anything. And you will have a canon ending in Game of Thrones.
Where did this idea that fans are somehow owed anything by the artists appear? I feel like this is so prevalent nowadays.
Here's how it goes. If you pay for it, you are due what you paid for. But until you actually pay for it, you don't get to ask for anything. So vote with your wallet. If Martin and his behavior pisses you off, don't buy his books. But we don't get to decide what happens to one man's work.
 

Darwin

Journeyed there and back again
#47
He can write a good book and still be a lazy asshole. They're not mutually exclusive. I can like his books but dislike him for being a lazy asshole. It's not hypocritical. Where did this idea come from that authors must be sheltered from all criticism? Where did the idea come from that it doesn't matter whether or not their fans are happy with them? I can speak with my words as well as my wallet. Why is one form of speech permissible, but not the other?

GRRM's work shouldn't be touched by others? What about the HBO show, which greatly deviates from the written series? He's written only a handful of the episodes. Robert Jordan let another author finish his series because he wanted it whole, and he wanted his fans to be happy. GRRM let HBO rewrite his because he wanted a fat check. That's artistic integrity?
 

Alucard

In the name of the Pizza Lord. Charge!
Staff member
#48
He can write a good book and still be a lazy asshole. They're not mutually exclusive. I can like his books but dislike him for being a lazy asshole. It's not hypocritical. Where did this idea come from that authors must be sheltered from all criticism? Where did the idea come from that it doesn't matter whether or not their fans are happy with them? I can speak with my words as well as my wallet. Why is one form of speech permissible, but not the other?
I'm not talking about any of that. You can think what you want of him as a person and as a writer, it doesn't mean much either way. You can adore or hate him, it doesnt matter.

GRRM's work shouldn't be touched by others? What about the HBO show, which greatly deviates from the written series? He's written only a handful of the episodes.
I never said that his work shouldn't be touched under any circumstances. Key word here is consent. He consented to work with GOT producers and he gave his permission. If the man leaves in his will and estate that he doesn't want anybody touching his unfinished work we should respect that. I also respect your right to think whatever you want about that decision. I personally get why, if he decides that, it's perfectly normal to want that for himself and his work.

Robert Jordan let another author finish his series because he wanted it whole, and he wanted his fans to be happy.
Let. That's the keyword. Consent again. I don't think Martin's "love" for the fans goes over his love for his own art. In my view that's part of what makes him a great artist. He has his own spiel and he doesn't care so much what we want.

GRRM let HBO rewrite his because he wanted a fat check. That's artistic integrity?
Oh come on. Do you seriously prescribe to that stupid idea that artists should be poor to be real artists? Give me a break. Artist work for a living just like anyone else. Just because their work is of a creative type and not manual they should not be payed?
Of course any TV adaptation will rewrite the material. Any adaption. The clue is in the name lol.
So let me see any artist that gets a tv show is now suddenly a sell out? Is that how it works? You're gonna go and rant about Rothfuss selling out now? Or let me guess it's just Martin?
 

Darwin

Journeyed there and back again
#49
It is about consent. I called him an asshole specifically because he said he wouldn't consent to another author finishing his work. It's the refusal that makes him the asshole. It's such a dick move, in my opinion, that his wishes should be ignored if there's any lawful way to do it.

I want authors to have financial incentive to publish novels. I want them to get stinky, filthy rich when they write a good book. I even want authors to explore the adaptation of their work to other media, even if it doesn't always work out. For ASoIaF/GoT, I enjoy the TV show at least as much as I enjoy the books. But it's hypocritical for GRRM to argue that he doesn't want others touching his work after he already let screenwriters do just that.

I'm not an artist like Martin is and I never will be, but here and there I draw some thing. I have many things left unfinished. Hypothetically, lets say my pictures become world famous and I die leaving my grand opus unfinished. You think I would want somebody messing with my work? I couldn't give a damn if they were the next da Vinci. Hands off! It's my artwork. I highly suspect Martin feels the same attachment to his work any creator who invest himself into it does.
That's the argument I was refuting. His attachment to his work only matters when there's a fat check involved.
 

Alucard

In the name of the Pizza Lord. Charge!
Staff member
#50
It is about consent. I called him an asshole specifically because he said he wouldn't consent to another author finishing his work.
So if he consents to someone's adaptation he's a sell out.
If he doesn't consent to someone's adaptation he's an asshole.

My oh my, mighty fine choices you are giving him :D

It's the refusal that makes him the asshole. It's such a dick move, in my opinion, that his wishes should be ignored if there's any lawful way to do it.
In my opinion his refusal doesn't make him anything. I don't get your position at all. Why would somebody's decision about their own work make them an asshole. He didn't already sell you Winds of Winter or any other book. He doesn't owe you anything.
Ignored? Agree to disagree. That seems so wrong to me. Ignoring somebody's will and testament. That's the level of attachment to books I never wanna feel.

That's the argument I was refuting. His attachment to his work only matters when there's a fat check involved.
Again, damn if he does, damn if don't. There's no pleasing fans, and real artists know that they shouldn't even try.
 

Ryan W. Mueller

Journeyed there and back again
#53
I know GRRM has said he doesn't want someone else to finish the series, but I think Daniel Abraham would do a very good job. The Dagger and the Coin reminds me of ASoIaF in some ways. I actually prefer The Dagger and the Coin because it feels more focused. I'm still working on book 3 of ASoIaF. It's not that I don't like it. I just don't love it enough to feel like I have to read it.

It probably doesn't help that I'm not expecting the series to be finished anytime soon, if ever.

To get back to the topic of the thread:

It doesn't bother me that it takes a while between Stormlight books coming out because I've really enjoyed everything Sanderson has written. Stormlight is probably his best work, but it's not like his other stuff is bad. With Sanderson, I know that I never have to wait too long to get something new. Maybe he could improve the prose quality if he took longer, but I don't think there'd be enough of an effect overall to make up for the longer time it takes.

No one's going to confuse Sanderson for a writer of great prose, and I think he knows that. What he can do is tell great stories, build great worlds, and give the reader characters that I actually find sympathetic. As an author, you have to play to your strengths. If you can write a bunch of books in a year and most of your readers enjoy them, why should you stop doing that?
 

Sparrow

Journeyed there and back again
#54
Why is he an asshole. I completely get the sentiment.
Just think how many paintings, movies, books have left unfinished throughout the history because people die all the time. It happens all the time. And just because this book series is popular, fans get to decide what happens to one man's art? Screw that sentiment.
I'm not an artist like Martin is and I never will be, but here and there I draw some thing. I have many things left unfinished. Hypothetically, lets say my pictures become world famous and I die leaving my grand opus unfinished. You think I would want somebody messing with my work? I couldn't give a damn if they were the next da Vinci. Hands off! It's my artwork. I highly suspect Martin feels the same attachment to his work any creator who invest himself into it does. I would never disrespect or presume that I or anyone else could finish somebody else's life work unless they specifically ask for it and even then it would have WRONG spelled all over it. Sorry for the pun.

I know many of you don't feel the way I do, but gooddamn people you sound way too needy when it comes to Martin.

I can only point out that 'the dead don't care'... sometimes even the living don't care what happens to something they've created. I'm sort of reminded of how unfair things are when I watch Antiques Roadshow on PBS, and someone brings a piece of art to be appraised and it turns out to be worth thousands of dollars, sometimes tens of thousands. Too often that painting or sculpture, photography or pottery is by an artist who never got the recognition he or she deserved while they were alive, and died broken and unappreciated. Then decades later an entire cottage industry springs up, started by people who have created nothing, and who sell the artwork of forgotten artists for great profit. I sometimes wonder if those artists would be pissed, or flattered that their art didn't die with them? I'm also reminded of a documentary I watched a few years ago, it was about photographer Francesca Woodman who committed suicide by jumping out the loft window of her apartment... she jumped believing she was a failure; negatives of her work now sell for thousands, her style has been copied by just about every fashion photographer alive.
My only experience with such things was browsing the art book section at Borders Bookstore many years ago and finding a big heavy "coffee table book" on the Art of Trompe-l'œil. When I was young and perpetually broke I used to paint murals and Trompe-l'œil for extra money, usually in the homes of wealthy folks. So I cracked open the book and paged through it... one of my murals was featured on a double-spread in the book! I was like 'oh fuck how cool is this', then I noticed at the bottom corner of the page for the title of the work "The Last Days of Autumn"... which was most definitely not the title of the piece. In fact I don't recall giving the mural any title at all, and if I had that title made absolutely no sense as it was a jungle scene and I don't believe trees in the jungle drop their leaves or are subject to seasonal whims! And the surprises didn't end there; the mural flowed across a long stretch of wall and on to an alcove, it was my favorite part of the mural as there was a leopard in a tree looking back at the viewer. Though the leopard wasn't the main focus of the mural, it was the best part... the leopard, the tree, the entire section had been wallpapered over! Underneath the title, it said 'Artist: Unknown'. Unknown my ass!:eek:

I suppose I fall into the category of not caring so much, or perhaps being slightly flattered that anything I do survives me.
And you should post a pic of your artwork on the thread I started about being creative and such.;)
 

Darwin

Journeyed there and back again
#55
So if he consents to someone's adaptation he's a sell out.
If he doesn't consent to someone's adaptation he's an asshole.

My oh my, mighty fine choices you are giving him :D
I've been completely consistent in my arguments. He doesn't care about his fans, and that makes him an asshole. The "he's just an artist, and he doesn't want anyone else touching his work" argument is a poor excuse, because he's already shown that he's willing to wave that aside for his own happiness. He's just not willing to do it for his fans.
In my opinion his refusal doesn't make him anything. I don't get your position at all. Why would somebody's decision about their own work make them an asshole. He didn't already sell you Winds of Winter or any other book. He doesn't owe you anything.
Not letting the series be finished in the event of his death would disappoint millions of fans. Not caring that they would be disappointed is what makes him an asshole. That there's no contractual obligation is completely irrelevant. Nobody is saying he has to.

Ignored? Agree to disagree. That seems so wrong to me. Ignoring somebody's will and testament.
But you're completely apathetic to GRRM spitting on the wishes of millions of fans?

Again, damn if he does, damn if don't. There's no pleasing fans, and real artists know that they shouldn't even try.
That's...ridiculous. Most fans are pleased with most authors, and most authors do what they can to please their fans. GRRM is deliberately becoming the Comcast of fantasy authors. What if instead of replying to trolls by saying "F*** you," he's said anything else, or nothing? What if he did make plans for the series if he were to die before its finished? What if he wasn't openly hostile to any form of criticism?
 

Cyphon

Journeyed there and back again
#56
Going to have to side more with Alucard on the idea of Martin not wanting someone else to finish his work. I understand the fan appreciation perspective and wanting them to get their whole story finished, but I tend to lean more to the artist side. I don't think you can ever completely portray exactly what you want to do to someone else and thus, any finishing of a dead mans work could never be what it was actually meant to be. So in a sense, you could argue that not letting someone else finish it is also looking out for the fans. You would rather them have no work at all then a work that doesn't meet your standards. I get it.

As for a very relevant example (especially given this thread topic), Sanderson finishing up for Jordan. I thought Sanderson did a commendable job but even with all of the materials he had available it flat out wasn't same. The books didn't feel quite the same and some of the characters were definitely off at times. So while I am glad I got a completed series as a fan I never actually got closure because I have so many questions about how it would have been written by Jordan to the finish.
 

Silvion Night

Sir Readalot
Staff member
#57
If Martin doesn't want someone else to finish his books that's total understandable. Tolkien had a similar attitude (his son Christopher published some books after the great author died, but his estate is very strict in not letting anyone finish existing manuscripts). Martin is also not fond of fan-fiction. Never has been. He doesn't do this to spite his fans, that's just how he handles his art.

So, I agree with Alucard. But.... also with Darwin! Why? Because in my opinion Martin is a bit of an asshole. Not because he doesn't want anyone to finish his series in case he dies, but because of his attitude to his fans. On several occasions he has insulted fans, he doesn't believe in keeping anyone up to date on anything and he has consistently missed previously set deadlines (if you know you can't keep them, just don't give us a deadline at all). Now Martin may be a nice guy in real life (in fact I think he is), but the aforementioned things makes him a bit of an ass in my book (especially when you compare him with the other current greats, like Sanderson or Hobbs).
 

Ryan W. Mueller

Journeyed there and back again
#58
As for a very relevant example (especially given this thread topic), Sanderson finishing up for Jordan. I thought Sanderson did a commendable job but even with all of the materials he had available it flat out wasn't same. The books didn't feel quite the same and some of the characters were definitely off at times. So while I am glad I got a completed series as a fan I never actually got closure because I have so many questions about how it would have been written by Jordan to the finish.
Oddly enough, I actually thought the last three books were the best of the series. Sure, Sanderson got a few things wrong, but he more than made up for it in other ways. Mostly, Sanderson's prose is not nearly as overwritten as Robert Jordan's. Sanderson would never write the infamous "Elayne bath scene" in Crossroads of Twilight.

In fact, I only forced myself through the series because I knew Sanderson was finishing it. Don't get me wrong. I loved Jordan's story, but I felt his writing style left a lot to be desired.
 

Hand of Fear

Journeyed there and back again
#59
It's late and I don't know where to put this, I follow Patrick Rothfuss on Goodreads and decided to leave a comment asking about how his third book was coming along (ok he gets asked this all the time, but my comment and another one users comment have mysterious disappeared). I didn't know that this could be done and why would be the point, I have been polite and respectful ?
 

Cyphon

Journeyed there and back again
#60
Oddly enough, I actually thought the last three books were the best of the series. Sure, Sanderson got a few things wrong, but he more than made up for it in other ways. Mostly, Sanderson's prose is not nearly as overwritten as Robert Jordan's. Sanderson would never write the infamous "Elayne bath scene" in Crossroads of Twilight.

In fact, I only forced myself through the series because I knew Sanderson was finishing it. Don't get me wrong. I loved Jordan's story, but I felt his writing style left a lot to be desired.
WoT was one of my first fantasy series and it really drew me in. Been so long since the time I first read it I can't say for sure if the writing was part of it or what. That being said, I really enjoyed the overall feel/style of the books and that changed with Sanderson. Not in a bad way, just different from what I already liked. One thing Sanderson struggled with in my opinion was writing Matt early on. I think he mostly righted the ship with him but at least in the first book his character seemed odd.

Something interesting I don't see talked about too often when people are discussing books is.....I am not sure how exactly to label it but let's call it "staying in your lane" writing lol. The relevant example I am thinking of is in the final Wheel of Time book. Jordan had a very specific feel to the era his world was set in. You know, level of technology, medical advancement and what not. In the final book Sanderson wrote a line that said (and I am paraphrasing here) someone did something like a master surgeon. Master surgeon was a completely foreign concept given the way the books were written by Jordan and it was completely out of place. I can't remember Jordan ever being jarring so to speak, with his choice of words. It is things like that that might make you appreciate Jordans writing a little more.

I first started paying more attention to this concept after watching in interview with Martin. He talked about one of the characters he struggled writing was Bran because he had to completely change his mindset in order to write from the perspective of a kid. Maybe it is just me but I don't think a lot of authors really take a lot of time to consider that when they are writing or if they do, they don't always manage it so well. It really makes you appreciate things like that when they are done well. Basically that ties in with my Jordan vs Sanderson point. Seeing Sanderson misstep quite a few times with things like that made me understand more of what Jordan brought to the table with his style.